16) The Bible says, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (II Thess. 2:7-8). The most common interpretation of this is that the Antichrist can’t be revealed until the Restrainer [who most commentators say is both the Holy Spirit and the Church] is removed. If the Restrainer is the Church only, this means the Church will be removed before the Antichrist is revealed [that’s the Pre-Trib. Rapture]. If the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit only so that the Holy Spirit is removed without the Church, this means believers will cease to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It also means the Church will be left behind to go through the worst time the earth has ever seen [the Tribulation Period] without the help of the Holy Spirit. This would contradict the teaching of Jesus when He said, “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever” (John 14:16). And, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Heb. 13:5).This is convincing I think. It doesn't make sense that the Church would be left without the Holy Spirit. However, does it make sense that ANYONE would be deprived of the Holy Spirit whom God intends to save? The Mystery of Inquity is going to be released to full operation -- and "revealed" -- when the Restrainer is removed. Who IS the "restrainer" of 2 Thessalonians 2? IS it the church? How COULD it be the Holy Spirit? How could anyone survive what's coming on the earth without Him? *
I'm also now convinced by what I've been reading here that if the Great Tribulation is equivalent to the unleashing of God's wrath as indicated by the opening of the Seals in the book of Revelation, that the Church won't be going through that, that we HAVE been promised protection from it. At least those who are faithful have been promised that protection; perhaps there are some who will go through it and yet in the end overcome. This I'm not sure about.
What's not clear is what to classify as wrath and what as expectable tribulation. But again I think it's important that those who are committed to the Rapture view recognize and strongly affirm that there IS tribulation for Christians in this world, and that means NOW too, up until the Rapture if it is to occur whenever that may be, because too many have fallen for the false idea that we aren't to suffer in this world.
17) Isaiah wrote that God said, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain” (Isa. 26:19-21). Notice, that the dead rise first [that’s the Rapture], next God’s people are summoned to enter into His chambers for a short while until the indignation [a name of the Tribulation Period is past]. God will raise the dead and summon His people because He intends to punish the inhabitants of the earth [send the Tribulation Period].Have to think about this; it seems to be stretching the point. For one thing it doesn't say Enter into MY chambers, but into THY chambers.
18) Malachi wrote that God said, “They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not” (Malachi 3:17-18). Pre-Tribulation teachers believe God is saying He will come for His Church [the Rapture] and then He will return with His Church [the Second Coming] to judge between the righteous and wicked.
19) In the Rapture, Jesus comes for His Church (I Thess. 4:16-17; John 14:3). When He comes at the end of the Tribulation Period, He will come with His Church (I Thess. 3:13; Rev. 19:14).
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.This passage doesn't seem to lend itself all that easily to the Rapture interpretation. I need to think about it a lot more myself.
20) Concerning the Second Coming, Jesus said, “But of the day and the hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matt. 24:36). But if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, some will know the day because it will be seven years from the signing of the seven-year covenant. Some will know the day because it will be 1260 days from the day the Antichrist defiles the Temple (Rev. 12:6).If the idea here is that those who DO go through the Tribulation are not to know any of these things, that seems very unlikely. If the Church suddenly disappears there are bound to be some among those left who have heard of the Rapture and will immediately turn to scripture and learn all the things the Church would have known anyway. And it seems to me essential that any who do go through the Tribulation SHOULD know these things so that they will have the strength to persevere through what is going to be unspeakable misery. It is true that the Second Coming of Christ can be pretty well established from the information given in scripture, but not necessarily perfectly, just very close, AND you have to be absolutely sure what the starting point was to be able to make that calculation. [Later: I've been reading End Time Pilgrim who rejects the rapture idea, and he shows that the starting point is the covenant with Israel to be made by the Antichrist as interpreted of Daniel, so quite exact calculations can be made.]
21) Concerning the Antichrist, many scholars believe the Bible teaches he won’t be revealed until after the Church is gone (II Thess. 2:6-8), but if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, some will know who he is because he will sign the seven-year covenant (Dan. 9:24-27), he will head up the world government (Rev. 13:1-10), he will try to force multitudes to worship him, and to receive his mark, receive his name or his number (Rev. 13:15-17). Many of those who are here and being forced to worship him and take his name or die will know who he is.
22) The Antichrist is not suppose[d] to be revealed until after the Church is gone (II Thess. 2:6-8), but if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he will put a statue of himself in the rebuilt Temple (Dan. 11:31; Dan. 12:11; Matt. 24:15).
23) If the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he will head up the world government and receive a deadly wound to his head that will be healed (Rev. 13:3). Some think he will be raised from the dead or at least fake the resurrection.
24) If the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he will head up the world government and be supported by the head of the world religion called the False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-18).
25) If the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he’s the one that will kill the Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:7).
And why would such calculations have been made available in God's word if the Church isn't going to be around to make use of them, unless those who ARE still around can learn them too? I don't see why people who, according to the rapture idea, come to faith during the Tribulation WOULDN'T be able to learn these things -- are all Bibles to be confiscated? Well, it's very likely I suppose that most of them would be. And it's also likely that any that are preserved will be the false modern Bibles, not the King James. Not that you can't get most of the truth out of them, but they do lend themselves to devious interpretations that the King James doesn't and the Antichrist will surely know how to twist them to his own purposes.
26) Many people don’t think the Church will go through the Tribulation Period because of verses of Scripture that say things like, “The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked he will destroy” (Psa. 145:18-20). Many believe God will preserve the Church from the Tribulation Period or keep the Church out of the Tribulation Period not destroy the Church in the Tribulation Period.However, such verses as these are easily enough interpreted to apply to the final judgment, not the Tribulation period.
27) There are verses of Scripture that say things like, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it” (Deut. 4:2; Prov. 30:5-6; Rev. 22:18-19). Some believe people have to throw away verses of Scripture to believe the Church will go through the Tribulation Period.If you're going to claim this you should give the verses in question so we can see what you mean.
28) In the seven letters to the seven churches, Jesus said, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches” seven times (Rev. 2:7,11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22). When we get to the Tribulation Period, Jesus said, “If any man have an ear, let him hear” (Rev. 13:9). He left out, “what the Spirit saith unto the churches” because there are no churches on earth to go through the Tribulation Period. The Church will be in heaven.Since scripture is often to be read with this degree of precision I think this is a good argument, or could be anyway. The objections would be that you can't argue from an absence, and scripture is to be read cumulatively, all applicable teachings to be understood in conjunction with each other.
29) When the Rapture happens the Church goes up to meet Jesus in the air (I Thess. 4:13-18), but at the end of the Tribulation Period the Church will come down to the earth with Jesus to witness what He does at the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:14-21).This is that same passage that above I note doesn't all that readily lend itself to the Rapture idea, so it needs more pondering, at least from me.
30) The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is more consistent with God’s grace, love, mercy, compassion, etc. The Mid and Post-Tribulation Rapture is more consistent God’s wrath.Well, this hinges on whether the Tribulation IS God's wrath or not. I'm pretty well convinced by now that because it's all about the opening of the Seven Seals with the various judgments to be poured onto the earth that it IS God's wrath we're talking about and that the Church WILL be protected from it, but I'm not sure that everything that is taken to refer to this period actually does refer to it.Natural disasters are clearly God's wrath, but what about the persecutions of the saints by the Antichrist? Down through history the Church hasn't been protected from that.
There are different ways the Church could be protected too, however, without taking the Church off earth altogether, such as sustaining us miraculously for instance.
But in any case the problem has always been to my mind that this emphasis on removal from suffering APPEARS to deny that the Church IS called to suffer for Christ and somehow this doesn't get discussed by the rapturists.
31) If the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation Period, and all the wicked are removed from the earth at that time (Matt. 13:24-30, 47-50; 25:41), no one will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennium. If all of the saved are Raptured and all the lost are removed from the earth at the end of the Tribulation Period, no one will be left to re-populate the earth.This objection ASSUMES the Millennial interpretation of the rapturists. That's a whole other topic for another time, for me anyway.
32) The Antichrist will prevail against the saints during the Tribulation Period, but the gates of hell won’t prevail against the Church (Rev. 13:7; Matt. 16:18). Therefore, the Church won’t go through the Tribulation Period.I think there is a confusion of contexts here. Prevailing against the saints in a worldly context -- which we know happens from time to time in this world or the lions could never have eaten any of them nor the Inquisition killed so many and so on -- isn't the same as prevailing against the Church in the ultimate scheme of things, which we know isn't going to happen. Even when the saints are martyred they triumph too and martyrdom ultimately defeats Satan.
33) The twenty-four elders [representatives of the Church] will be in heaven before the seven-sealed scroll is broken (Rev. 4:4; 6:1-17).Yes, but weren't they already there in John's time anyway?
34) Jesus was talking about the Tribulation Period when He said, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass” (Luke 21:36). He didn’t say, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to endure some or all of these things that shall come to pass.”Was He talking about the Tribulation period in the sense of the pouring out of God's wrath or a period when false prophets who hate His people would be proliferating, which is well underway already, and are they these same thing? This is part of my fuzziness again here so I need to do more study and pondering.
35) There are no signs of the Rapture, but if the Rapture takes place during the Tribulation Period, it would have to be after the seven-year covenant is signed by the Antichrist, and perhaps after several other things depending upon what a person believes about Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, etc.Hm.
36) Jesus said, “When these things [the signs] begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh” (Luke 21:28).He didn’t say, “After all these things have happened your redemption draweth nigh.” He said, “When these things begin to come to pass it’s close.”
Prophecy Plus Ministries
Daymond & Rachel Duck
daymondduck@bellsouth.net
rachelduck@bellsouth.net
OK. Lot of food for thought there. For me in particular.
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* Concerning the Restrainer, here's a three-part video series that claims he can't be the Holy Spirit OR the Church. Watch to see who their candidate is. OK, I won't make you do that: It's Michael the archangel, who is the protector of Israel. In Daniel 12 he is described as standing up, at which point terrible sufferings are unleashed against God's people. [Rapture believers regard "Daniel's people" as exclusively the Jews; but it is just as defensible an idea to regard them as "God's people" or believers, all those who are "written in the book," which defines ALL believers.
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