Some Support for the Pre-Trib Rapture -- but is Tribulation the same as Wrath?

Hope I get back to the posts I began but didn't finish. But if I don't, I'll move them up for when I do get to deal with them.

Right now I want to post this article which argues FOR the rapture, and pretty convincingly I'd say. Again remember I'm not really up on all the facets of the different end times/eschatalogical theories so what I have to say in response to this argument is subject to change at any time. This article was a link from Olive Tree Ministries, so I take it to be more or less endorsed by Jan Markell just because I know she is a pre-trib-rapture believer.

Thirty–Six Pre-Trib Rapture Texts By Daymond Duck:

1) There are no passages in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that say the Church will go through the Tribulation Period.

This probably depends a great deal on how terms such as "Israel" are understood in particular passages, because SOMETIMES it does describe the Church, which includes both Jew and Gentile. This is something I would have to study verse by verse to argue effectively one way or the other, of course, so all I can do now is just register some general thoughts. Also, since the Church HAS gone through great tribulation ever since its inception and was going through it as some of the New Testament books were being written, especially the horrific persecution under Nero, it seems implicit in the text and unnecessary to spell it out further.

2) The Tribulation Period is called the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” [The time of unbelieving Israel’s Trouble], but it is never called the time of the Church’s Trouble (Jer. 30:7).

I do think this is a strong argument, hingeing on the difference between calling the Jews by the name of "Jacob" which identifies them as a people but not as believers, and "Israel" which is the name God gave to Jacob when Jacob was truly converted [Genesis 32:27-28 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed].

However, I believe there is a line of argument that puts "the time of Jacob's trouble" at the Holocaust under Nazi Germany. I think this is a thin argument myself and that there is bound to be yet another time of Jacob's trouble to come. This doesn't necessarily prove the Rapture, however, though it does suggest that if this time of trouble is the same as the Great Tribulation that only unbelieving Jews will be involved in it.

3) Gabriel told Daniel, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Daniel’s people are the Jews] and upon thy holy city” [The Holy City is Jerusalem] (Dan. 9:24). There is no mention of the Church.

4) The Church had no part in the first sixty-nine weeks and it will have no part in the seventieth week [the Tribulation Period] (Dan. 9:24).

"Daniel's people" could just as well be all believers as the Jews, and "the Church" refers to the body of believers.

However, historically the sixty-nine weeks ("weeks" means "sevens" so this means 69 x 7 years) occurred before Christ came, in fact by one famous reckoning they can be counted right up to the day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey. This leaves one "week" or seven years to complete the prophecy that have not yet been fulfilled. And I do think this is a good argument that since the first 69 occurred before the coming of Christ, that the 70th could very well involve only the Jews.

Also, yes, the "holy city" can only mean Jerusalem.

Does this prove the Rapture of the Church? Certinaly not directly. All this could possibly describe events in Israel itself while the Church remains on earth.

5) In the Book of Revelation, the Rapture occurs at Rev. 4:1 which is before the Tribulation Period described in Rev. 6:1-19:21. In the sequence of events, the Rapture is before the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments.

Yes, IF it's right to interpret Revelation 4:1 (John's being invited to see future events from heaven) as referring to the Rapture, but that depends on already accepting the Rapture idea so that this passage would happen to fit right into it.

Revelation 4:1-2 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

If the Rapture is not assumed, the verse appears only to be describing a change of perspective from earth to heaven, to make sense of the heavily symbolic imagery that begins at this point. There is nothing ELSE to designate this event -- John's being carried into heaven -- as indicating the Rapture. He describes the dazzling throne room of God but nothing suggestive of the welcome and comforts the Church would presumably find at the Rapture.

One other point: The writer interprets the events of Revelation as sequential in time so that if 4:1 DOES refer to the Rapture it then of course precedes the Tribulation which is described from 6 through 19:21. I personally think it makes sense to interpret it sequentially myself, but I have to note that some treat the symbolic imagery as different versions of the same message meant to apply to Christians in all ages, and there are other approaches to Revelation too. They've never been convincing to me so I'm just noting their existence in case it turns out there's something to some of them.

6) The Church is mentioned more than twenty times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but the Church is never mentioned in the description of the Tribulation Period between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 19:1.

This is a pretty good argument I'd say. The Church IS explicitly referred to in the first three chapters of Revelation and not again. The imagery of the Book of Revelation has been rightly described as belonging to the type of Old Testament prophecies, and this does strongly suggest the idea that God does plan to round out His dealings with planet Earth by a return to His Old Testament people.

HOWEVER, there is this objection that occurred to me as I was reading Revelation: In Rev 6 the fifth seal refers to the martyrs under the altar asking how long they must wait. These are the Church, aren't they? The Church meaning ALL, Jew and Gentile. So it's not true that the Church is not mentioned after 4:1. They are told they must wait a while longer, until the rest of the preordained martyrs join them.

One has to ask how it could be that ANY of the Church could be in heaven going on waiting for the fullness of their number to join them IF the rapture has supposedly occurred and other members of the Church are enjoying the wedding feast of the lamb. And again, how could any of the Church be yet outside, those martyrs yet to come, during the feast and therefore missing it too?

Then Revelation 6 ends with the opening of the 6th seal and the announcement that the Wrath of the Lamb has now come. If wrath begins at this point shouldn't the Rapture occur at this point and not before?

7) The Tribulation Period is called a Day of Wrath in the Bible (Zeph 1:15), but the Bible says, “God hath not appointed us [the Church] to wrath” (I Thess. 5:9).

8) The Tribulation Period is called a Day of Wrath in the Bible (Zeph. 1:15), but the Bible says, Jesus has “delivered us from the wrath to come” [delivered the Church from the Tribulation Period] (I Thess. 1:10).

9) The Tribulation Period is called the Day of the Lord in the Bible (Zeph. 1:14). The Bible says, “the day of the Lord [the Tribulation Period] so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they [the unbelievers] shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them [upon the unbelievers], as travail upon a woman with child; and they [the unbelievers] shall not escape” (I Thess. 5:2-3). It clearly teaches that the Tribulation Period will come upon unbelievers, but it does not include believers.

This I will have to think about quite a bit, because in my mind tribulation is NOT God's wrath. Tribulation is brought against the church by the powers that follow Satan, and the Church -- INCLUDING THE OLD TESTAMENT CHURCH RIGHTLY UNDERSTOOD -- has always had to suffer tribulation, while wrath is God's judgment against unbelievers -- though often believers can't help but get caught in it too. In the case of the Great Tribulation, is this now to be understood as God's wrath?

In favor of this argument, the judgments described in the Book of Revelation that are released with the opening of the Seals certainly ARE God's wrath and not the kind of tribulation the Church has always gone through, so THAT is an argument for the Rapture it seems to me. So I'm having a terminological problem with tribulation versus wrath I have yet to sort out.

10) Concerning the Rapture, the Bible says, “Comfort one another with these words” (I Thess. 4:18). There’s no comfort in the teaching that the Church will go through part or all of the Tribulation Period.

Yes, if the Tribulation IS God's wrath there's certainly no comfort in that idea. BUT what ABOUT the fact that all over the world NOW as well as down through the centuries the true Church has ALWAYS suffered tremendous tribulation at the hands of unbelievers? Why should WE expect to escape THAT? Or is that a separate category of suffering that we need to consider separately?

What ABOUT Corrie Ten Boom's warning? She pointed out that trust in the Rapture has left Christians in other parts of the world cruelly unprepared for the persecutions they have had to endure -- in China, in Africa. There have always been such persecutions and in our time they've come under the Communists in Russia and China, under Islam, under the Hindus in India, and they continue all over the world even today.

We have not yet experienced it in the West but isn't it still possible that it is coming to us soon? ALL THE SIGNS ARE THAT IRRATIONAL HATRED FOR CHRISTIANS HAS BEEN INCREASING no matter what our efforts against it. This is NOT God's wrath, this is persecution, and Jesus told us that we WILL suffer tribulation in this world.

Josef Tson, a Rumanian pastor who was persecuted under Ceaucescu, has warned Americans about this growing atmosphere of hostility to Christians in America and the West that we need to prepare for. This very real possiblity can't just be put aside while we contemplate a Rapture that might or might not occur. If it is to occur, it nevertheless should not be taken to preclude this very real possibility -- it must be discussed as a separate concern.

11) Jesus told the Church at Philadelphia, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [the Tribulation Period], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10). God promised to keep the obedient Church members out of the Tribulation Period.

OK. This is clearly a promise of protection from suffering, but it can't mean to promise that all Christians will always be kept from persecution.

THIS PROBLEM HAS TO BE ADDRESSED BY PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE AND I HAVE NOT SEEN IT ADDRESSED ANYWHERE.

12) According to the Bible, the marriage of the Lamb will take place in heaven before Jesus comes back to fight the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation Period (Rev. 19:7-21). This means the Church will go to heaven [be Raptured] for the marriage of the Lamb before the Second Coming.

Again, this depends on how strictly the Book of Revelation is to be read chronologically. And this also raises the knotty question why those who survive the Great Tribulation are not part of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. Doesn't this split the Church in a way that the New Testament disavows, as aren't we all, Jew and Gentile, one in Christ Jesus? How can people who are true saints miss the wedding feast?

13) The end of the age will be like the days of Noah (Matt. 24:37). Noah and his family were removed from the earth [got on the ark] before the flood. Some believe this means that the Church will be removed from the earth before the judgment of God [Raptured before the Tribulation Period] (Gen. 7:23).

This interpretation does make sense to me. Parallel events are very biblical. When Jesus says that two will be in the field, or at the mill, and one will be "taken" and the other "left" this same scenario is implied. [Matthew 24:40-41 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.]

But a problem with this is that those who were left all died in the Flood. It doesn't parallel the Flood to expect to get a new crop of saints out of the Great Tribulation if the Church has escaped it. Only wrath on unbelievers would fit the parallel, and NOBODY would escape.

14) The end of the age will be like the days of Lot (Luke 17:28). Lot and his family were removed from Sodom before the judgment of God [before the fire and brimstone fell] (Gen. 19:16). Some believe this means that the Church will be removed from the earth before the judgment of God [Raptured before the Tribulation Period].

Same problem. ALL in Sodom were destroyed except the few who escaped.

15) Jesus was talking about the Tribulation Period when He said, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass” (Luke 21:36). It seems unreasonable to believe Jesus would tell the Church to pray for something He is unwilling to grant.

True, but Jesus ALSO said we WOULD have tribulation in this world and Christians have been severely persecuted, eaten by lions, subjected to diabolical tortures and the like from the beginning. Too often such promises of escape keep Christians from anticipating these "normal" persecutions, and again, those who are making this argument NEED TO ADDRESS THIS DIFFERENCE.

TO BE CONTINUED.

The Great Apostasy

And this is another post I have not yet written although again I want to put up the title. This is to be a place to accumulate the various ways Christianity has been compromised in these last days, and the variety is, so to speak, "legion." We could start with the "liberal" churches that have been around for decades, and then we have to move into charismatic trends, and the Emergent Church apostasy and many others. Well, no, we have to start with Roman Catholicism, the granddaddy Antichrist system itself.

I will at least link to other sites that list and discuss these movements. And it's not just movements. Even pretty good churches need to consider that they have made compromises that weaken their spiritual strength for facing the last days that are just about upon us.

Preparing for (the Great) Tribulation

I do not yet have a post written under this title but I want to publish the title anyway.

As I've been led from the startling recognition that Glenn Beck's rally was a spiritual deception to more and more information about the last of the last days we've most certainly entered, I realized I want to pull back from all worldly interests and concentrate on studying how we are to deal with these things.

As I note in my post on the end times panel discussion by the pre-trib rapture people, I do believe that Israel is the key to the last days of planet earth, but I don't believe the church is going to be raptured. I think we are going to go through the tribulation because down through the ages the church always HAS gone through great tribulation and there's no reason to think the church of the last days should be excepted.

I linked a letter by Corrie Ten Boom written in 1974 about how the rapture idea is a deception that can only weaken Christians spiritually at a time when we need to be strengthened by the Holy Spirit.

I expect to eventually write more on this here, Lord willing.

The End Times, Israel, the Jews, the Rapture, the Tribulation and so on.

I have to admit before I write anything on this topic that I am not very qualified to do this. I haven't been keeping up with it much; what I know I gleaned over the last twenty years or so in bits and pieces, from various books and ministries; I'm aware of many different points of view on it, none of which I've studied in any depth; and it's been a long time since I spent any time learning and thinking through the issues.

Nevertheless, I'm prompted to write on this subject by the panel discussion on Bible prophecy I just linked, hosted by a Jewish Christian ministry, Olive Tree Views, which I recently discovered through an email sent by a friend. My excuse is that we ARE in the last days and it's arguably better at least to keep the subject alive than wait until I can take the time to become an expert on it -- which I know I'm not going to do for a while yet if ever. I can also of course refer people to others who ARE experts -- but even that is going to take a little time and research at this point, so for now I'm just going to wing it.

I'm surprised to find myself appreciating so much a Jewish Christian ministry as a matter of fact, since what I've seen of the Messianic (Jewish) churches over the last decade or so is a move to a form of Judaizing that I have to reject, such as the Hebrew Roots Movement, insistence on obeying all the Jewish commands, using Jewish forms of worship such as the yarmulke and the prayer shawl, and even objections to the Name of Jesus and the like.* In fact most of the email forwards I get from the Messianic point of view tend in that direction.

I might not even have paid attention to this one except that the topic was the Glenn Beck rally that I'd just been posting on, and it turns out I really appreciate their analysis. As I've checked out the site I've liked most of what I see there.

All that said, I just want to write a bit of orientation to the end times issues being discussed. And again, keep in mind that I'm pretty fuzzy on most of it, but even my fuzziness may contribute some kind of perspective to someone who doesn't even know enough to be fuzzy about it. That's my main aim, to introduce some of the ideas, fuzzy though they may be, to people who know nothing at all about them.

Here again is that three-part panel discussion of end times events from a Jewish Christian pre-trib point of view that I linked in the previous post.

[UPDATE: I added a note to this effect at the bottom of this post too, linking to a letter written by Corrie Ten Boom in 1974: While this panel all seem to agree that Christians are going to be removed from earth before the tribulation occurs, this idea has never seemed to me to line up with the fact that Christians have always been severely persecuted in this world, from the time of the early church when the Romans threw them to the lions, through the Inquisition and other persecutions down the ages in the west (read Foxe's Book of Martyrs) and more recently in other parts of the world such as China and India and the Middle East. So the expectation of being raptured away from the Great Tribulation to come has little to stand on. We'll ALL go through the tribulation, both Jew and Gentile.

BUT very little is said in this panel discussion about the rapture, and the part of it that refers to Israel and the Middle East as the centerpiece of prophecy related to the end times, along with other signs of the times such as the growth of false movements in the churches, are still important and valid:]

This group all clearly share the end times point of view called the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which understands prophecy to show that just before the return of Jesus Christ to earth there is going to be a time of severe tribulation for the saints/believers in Christ but that these will be (mostly?) Jewish saints/believers who convert to Christ during that period. This is to be a period in which God resumes His dealings with the Jews after some 2000 years (so far) in which He has been bringing nonJews into His Kingdom and His church, the "times of the gentiles" according to the Bible. The Book of Revelation deals with this period most specifically, but there are also important passages in the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and others that relate to it, as well as short passages in some New Testament books.

Just before this period of history begins, the church, that is, the believers in Jesus Christ now living, will be "raptured" or removed from the earth to rise to be with Jesus while the tribulation unfolds. ** This is supposedly to be an invisible and silent event, except that of course the people who are raptured will be certainly recognized as missing from earth. (Then there will probably be all kinds of wild speculations and theories to explain the disappearance of so many people).

There are different ideas about when this rapture is to occur but all seem to agree that it will occur before the tribulation sufferings begin. There's a period of seven years that's understood to be the time frame in which ALL the end times events are to occur -- if you know when it begins then you should be able to predict its end from various scripture passages which refer to it, something the people suffering through this period will need to know in order to persevere through it without losing heart. The rapture could occur seven years before Jesus returns to earth or it could be three and a half years before Jesus returns, with a first three and a half years being a period of relative peace. All of these things should become clearer in the light of scripture as the events themselves unfold.

A character known as the Antichrist is to come to a position of power over the entire world during this period. He will cause terrific suffering to the people who choose to follow Christ -- but they have an eternity of joy to look forward to in exchange for their suffering, while those who choose to follow the Antichrist will be facing an eternity of suffering in exchange for the peace and prosperity he allows them during this short period on earth.

That's the briefest possible sketch of what I understand of the Pre Trib point of view. It used to be the most popular view in evangelical circles. I heard it everywhere when I first became a believer in the late 80s. Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth was THE big source of this eschatalogy (end times) vision.

Then it fell out of favor to some extent and I started hearing other points of view contending against it being aired on Christian radio and promoted in books.* One view puts all the prophetic verses in the past, claiming they are all already fulfilled and there is nothing yet to be fulfilled in the future, for instance, the Antichrist was Nero and that's the end of that (seems to me there have been many antichrists throughout history and Nero was one of them -- others include Antioches Epiphanes and Hitler -- but there is still THE Antichrist yet to come who will bring the world to an end). One view completely substitutes the church for "Israel" in all the scriptures that are taken by the Pre-Trib people to refer to literal Israel, and in that way finds most or all of the prophecies already fulfilled and nothing left to be fulfilled by literal Israel or the Jews. Some views pivot on the question whether there is to be a literal "millennium" in which Jesus rules and reigns over the earth, some saying that's the period we've been in since His first coming so that it too is not future but already fulfilled.

I did dutifully pay attention to these ideas as I encountered them but the upshot for me was that none of them did any more convincing a job of interpreting the relevant Biblical texts than the Pre-Trib idea did. I did at least step back from that view a bit and take the position that there could be some validity to some of the objections, but I remained convinced that there is still unfulfilled prophecy so that SOME of it HAS to be yet future. However, among the pre-trib people there are some who focus so completely on literal Israel as God's chosen people that the church is treated as a meaningless nonentity, and that can't be the case --I went to Ephesians to reassure myself: it's very clear, we're all ONE in Christ Jesus, one body of Christ, no more Jew nor Gentile but one people, the wall of separation between us having been eradicated by His sacrifice. In other words, SOME passages that refer to Israel DO mean to refer to the church (composed of Jew AND Gentile, remember, and even when we're talking about earthly Israel and Jews who may come to belief during the Tribulation we're still talking about people being added to the body of Christ -- I mean there are NOT two different bodies of saved people no matter how it all sorts out in historical time and geographical place). Sometimes there is a dual reference to both the church and literal Israel just as other prophecies often have a dual reference to different events in different time periods; and there MAY be some unfulfilled prophecies that refer exclusively to earthly Israel, though I'm not prepared to argue any of this yet.

This is all rather vague in my mind, now, sorry to say, I'm merely remembering how I sorted it out in times past and maybe I will get back to it some time and renew my thinking on it. Where I stand at the moment is sort of suspended in midair on some of these questions, but I know I can at least say I'm sure that SOME of the prophecies are yet to be fulfilled, and I'm sure that earthly Israel is definitely on God's agenda for the last days -- This has to be so because God has had literal dealings with this planet from the beginning -- Eden is a literal place, Adam and Eve were our first parents, they really did disobey and plunge the world into death, and God really did promise them that He would send a Savior from that condition. The Flood really did happen and the scars from it are quite visible all over the planet if you learn how to see. Abraham was a real person who came from a real Ur at God's command and founded a real people for God's purpose of producing the Messiah. God gave His people a real piece of land on the planet as their own -- HIS own for His purposes. That plan didn't just disappear with the advent of the Messiah. True, the land was destroyed, the temple destroyed and the people were scattered for the next two thousand years, to such an extent that it was quite reasonable to suppose that it would never be restored despite prophecies that tantalizingly said it would be. And now they are back on that very same land since May 14, 1948. This is no accident. It was prophesied and the last days more or less begin with this historical fact. It makes no sense to think that God would utterly change His method of operation and change an earthly Israel into a spiritual Israel -- though this isn't to deny that there can be at least two levels of meaning to the term. No, the angels who were with the disciples when they watched Jesus ascend into heaven said clearly that He would return the same way they saw Him leave. He is to return to the Mount of Olives. If He really ascended in time and space, then He will really return in time and space. "And every eye will see Him, and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD."

That part of the prophetic picture I am sure of. The rest of it, the rapture of the church, the tribulation, all that is still very unsettled in my mind.** Even after watching this panel discussion it still remains unsettled in my mind. But I think it's a very good discussion by people who really know their stuff so I strongly recommend it and others may come away with a more solid understanding than I have.

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* It is simply not possible to easily identify the true Church or true doctrine these days because there are so many competing points of view and heretical movements -- and these two I've starred -- both the Messianic Jewish errors and the multiplied end times interpretations -- are very recent, within a decade or so. This in itself is a sign that we are in the end times, the devil making redoubled efforts to confuse issues to mislead people and make work for believers. Jan Markell comments on this in this panel discussion video, specifically the trend in some churches to ignoring the importance of earthly Israel in eschatological thought.

In fact there is a veritable labyrinth of proliferating versions of Christianity out there right now that must be very daunting to anyone just entering. The churches that call themselves evangelical these days are just as likely to be heretical as any pseudoChristian cult. I'm very fortunate that I did a lot of studying from the beginning and have a pretty decent sense of what's orthodox so that when something new pops up I can pray about it and have scripture come to mind that applies to the situation. That way I can make my way through the labyrinth with the Lord's guidance. Not that I don't make wrong turns of course -- sidled into the charismatic movement for a few years for instance -- and I know one can't ever become complacent about any of this as error is always the easiest route for human beings, but a good knowledge of scripture is indeed a light unto my path when I am being obedient and trusting in the Holy Spirit to lead.

I feel sorry for those just starting out in this labyrinth now because of the dizzying array of apostasies that call themselves Christian churches, but the methods of getting through it are still the same: know the scripture, know the scripture, know the scripture, pray pray pray and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance.

BUT, I realize that the BIGGEST hindrance to negotiating this obstacle course is one's own mind. We are our own worst enemies. That is, for instance, you can know the scripture very well but misread it if you let your own prejudices lead instead of subordinating your thoughts and letting the Bible lead. ALL error, ALL heresy, ALL apostasy comes from reading your own preconceptions into the scripture instead of submitting to it to be guided by it. We ONLY get to the truth by becoming "as little children," by looking to God and NOT to our own understanding. People with a strong intellectual bent who come to Christ HAVE TO LEARN TO REIN IT IN to follow scripture wherever it leads. If you have a death-grip on some political or philosophical tenet, or on some Bible-defined sin that you refuse to call sin; or if you are attracted to new ideas, to things that sound sophisticated or "progressive," and you stubbornly follow those attractions against what scripture teaches, you are going to end up in some part of the labyrinth designed by Satan and not by God. Learning to yield our own notions to God is possibly as much as 99% of the Christian life, maybe 100% rightly understood.

As a beginner in Christ there were parts of the Bible I couldn't accept in my own intellect because of my previous prejudices. But God graciously allowed me just to keep all that on hold while He let me absorb the parts I could accept, until finally the parts I couldn't accept also yielded. If you say "Thy will be done, not mine" even if you don't understand or like some of it at first, eventually you'll be given light to see what you need to see. This is faith and it IS evidence, it IS the substance of things unseen, and the more faith you have the more you will be given -- this is a law of the spiritual life.

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** IMPORTANT UPDATE: Here is Corrie Ten Boom on why the pre-tribulation rapture is FALSE, part of the apostasy. Yup, I knew there was a reason I was resistant to the rapture idea and the idea that we'd escape tribulation.

Here's a three-part panel discussion of end times events from a Jewish Christian pre-trib point of view.

If you think you're too smart to be duped by the devil Part 2

[Note: The radio broadcast linked in my previous post should be heard by everyone who wants to understand why Christians cannot stand with Glenn Beck on religion.]

What if we got a Mormon President?

They're such nice moral conservative (except for Harry Reid) patriotic people, what a relief it would be compared to Obama?

One of the speakers on that radio program I refer to above was Ed Decker, a former Mormon who has worked extensively to educate people on the true nature of Mormonism. Here are some excerpts from a chapter of his book My Kingdom Come, The Mormon Plan for America and the Rise of Mitt Romney

You think Obama's Marxist commitment is going to destroy the nation? (It is.) You think Muslim commitment to the Koran and to Shariah law would destroy the nation if Islam gets a foothold? (It would.) But now consider that if a Mormon gets into the Presidency, another set of commitments in the form of an oath against this nation and Mormon prophecies about a Morman Presidency would go into effect with just as destructive consequences.

When George Romney, Mitt's father, made his aborted run for President in 1968, there was a lot in internal LDS talk about the last days prophecies that the US constitution would hang by a thread to be saved by the elders of the LDS church. Many felt that the day had finally arrived for the actual "Kingdom of God" to be established.

This pure form of theocratic, prophet led government would prepare the way for the ushering in of the millennium, the time when Jesus would return to earth, sit in his temple in Missouri to reign over the earth, with the center of His government operated as the "Kingdom of God" on earth.

The actual background for all these whispered conversations came from much of the historical documents of the church and the speeches of many of the early church authorities.

It goes something like this. Joseph Smith implemented a program called the United Order in the church -- It was a plan of sharing... everything in common, all properties and wealth turned over and owned by the church and dispersed by the Brethren to the people on an as needed basis with a requirement for good stewardship or loss of use.

It was called the "Kingdom of God." It was people living as God ordained under the United Order. However, it failed.

It was later determined that it could only work when both the secular and ecclesiastic functions operated under one authority... An LDS prophet ruling over a theocratic government where eternal commandments like the United Order and plural marriage and blood atonement would function within "The Kingdom of God"

That Theocracy would come into existence when the US Constitution would hang by a thread and the Mormon elders would be there to save it and the country and thereby usher in The Kingdom of God, the prophesied Mormon theocracy.

...Now we jump ahead 40 years to 2007 -- and the 2008 Presidential election. A whole generation has passed and the son of George Romney has risen to the top of the list of Mormons who would qualify to take that run at the Oval Office and perhaps be in the right place as President or Vice President as the Constitution hangs by that foretold thread -- and be there to call upon the elders, the Brethren to save the nation and soon usher in the "Kingdom of God."

Far fetched... I would agree that I sound like a man shouting fire in a theatre, but, as you will read, I am talking about valid LDS end-times teachings...

You will also see that Mitt Romney has been raised and trained for this day. His family has been in the church for generations. He is the great grandson of polygamists Gaskell Romney and Anna Amelia Pratt.

Mitt Romney is a Temple Mormon, a High Priest, and as such he has sworn blood oaths of sacrifice, obedience and consecration to the church and the "Kingdom of God." His perfect obedience to these laws will allow him to become a god in the next life, the literal father of the peoples of a new and different earth. He is truly a Presidential candidate with an actual, definable god complex.

...Mitt Romney is a nice looking man, successful in the business world, with core values of family, church and faith. He does not smoke, drink or even touch coffee or tea. He has been married to the same woman for decades. He seems like the cure for dealing with the corruption of our national leadership. What could possibly be wrong in having such a man as our President? Let's look at some of the reasons his presidency could be the end of America as we know it.

...It is hard to imagine that well-educated Mormon men of such political stature like former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, Utah Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah or Senator Harry Reid of Nevada could bring their thumbs to their throats and swear a blood oath that they will '˜suffer' their throats slit from ear to ear should they not "sacrifice all that [they] possess, even [their] own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God, as defined by the Mormon prophet.

These LDS oaths are taken directly from the rituals of Blue Lodge Masonry, the source of much of the LDS Temple rituals. It is no wonder, since the first 5 presidents and prophets of the LDS church were Masons.

These high level Temple Mormons clearly know that this Mormon "Kingdom of God" is, in reality, a Mormon one-world government, a theocracy, soon coming to America, that will be run by the strong arm of the Mormon Brethren, headed up by the only true prophet of God on earth. However, it is clear that they did swear such an oath.

...Mormon leaders call their empire the "Kingdom of God." However, their "God" is an extraterrestrial from Kolob, definitely not the God of the Bible; and the "Zion" to which their spirit-brother-of-Lucifer Jesus Christ will return to reign is Independence, Missouri.

...Mormonism seems as American as apple pie, and Mormons seem to be the perfect citizens with their close families, high morals, patriotism, Boy Scout programs, Tabernacle Choir, and conservative politics. A Los Angeles Times article implied that Mormons have recently gained the image of "super-Americans . . . [who] appear to many to be 'more American than the average American."

This may explain why such a high proportion of Mormons find their way into government. Returned LDS missionaries have "the three qualities the CIA wants: foreign language ability, training in a foreign country, and former residence in a foreign country." Utah (and particularly BYU) is one of the prime recruiting areas for the CIA. According to BYU spokesman Dr. Gary Williams, "We've never had any trouble placing anyone who has applied to the CIA. Every year they take almost anybody who applies." He also admitted that this has created problems with a number of foreign countries, who have complained about the "pretty good dose of [Mormon] missionaries who've gone back to the countries they were in as Central Intelligence agents."

This may at least partially explain the reported close tie between the Mormon Church and the CIA. A disproportionate number of Mormons arrive at the higher levels of the CIA, FBI, military intelligence, armed forces, and all levels of city, state, and federal governments, including the Senate, Congress, Cabinet, and White House Staff. Sincere and loyal citizens, most of them may be unaware of the secret ambition of The Brethren. What could be better than having such patriots as these serving in strategic areas of government and national security?

Unfortunately, as we have noticed in every other area of Mormonism, the real truth lies hidden beneath the seemingly ideal image of patriotism presented by Mormons in public service. In fact their very presence in responsible government positions, particularly in agencies dealing with national security, raises some extremely grave questions that were expressed in my following letter mailed to the LDS Brethren in Salt Lake City. I also published it as an open letter in the Salt Lake Tribune.

The Mormon Oath of Vengeance Against this Nation

An open letter to:

The President, First Presidency and members of the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
August 21, 1980

Gentlemen:
I was recently reflecting that although the actual blood oath and the oath of vengeance were removed from the Temple ceremonies sometime after 1930, you gentlemen [listing ten of the above] are of an age to have received your own endowments prior to their removal, and therefore, are still under these oaths.

I am particularly interested in your personal position on your oath of vengeance against the United States of America. As you recall, the oath was basically as follows:

You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray and never cease to importune high heaven to AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS (Joseph and Hiram Smith) ON THIS NATION, and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generation.

Have you officially renounced this oath? Or are you still bound by it?

He didn't get an answer.

If you think you're too smart to be duped by the devil, think again.

So. We've had our eyes on Obama, we've had our eyes on Islam. We've also had our eyes on Catholicism, some of us, and some Christians have had our eyes on certain movements within Christianity as well -- The Emerging Church, Dominionism, The Kansas City Prophets and so on. If we keep up on studies of the cults we are also aware of Mormonism's bizarre teachings and ambitions. I'm one of those who have pondered how the Antichrist Religion of the last days might stack up between Catholicism, Islam and Mormonism, with some version of Hinduism and its New Age offshoots thrown in. Mormonism is usually in the mix but I have to say I had no idea until this Glenn Beck rally over the weekend just how close they might be to fulfilling their crazy notions.

I can only STRONGLY recommend this radio broadcast, titled Are Christians Selling Their Soul For Patriotism? , all two hours of it, for the best reasoning on why Christians must not support Glenn Beck, showing just how deeply Beck's ambitions for America are rooted in his Mormonism. It's a crash course in Mormonism that might cause you to rethink the current political scene or at least convince you that what is happening isn't necessarily what it seems to be. This is a discussion between three experts on Mormonism and a radio hostess named Jan Markell, who is completely new to me, and for me it's an eyeopener.

Part 1 is a good solid introduction to the situation with Glenn Beck and Mormonism in general, but Part 2 opens up possibilities anybody who thinks about the end times HAS to be aware of. Here is the description of the broadcast from the website:

Jan's guests include Brannon Howse, Eric Barger, and Ed Decker. The issue is Glenn Beck. Over two hours, the ultimate question is: are Christians selling their soul for patriotism? Most conservatives love Glenn Beck. He exposes evil and he loves America. He hates what is happening to this nation. But Glenn has another agenda as the panel proves over two hours: The subtle promotion of Mormonism. Listen and learn what is happening, why it is happening, and who are the Christians participating. While many suggest he is a "saved Mormon," the panel says that is not possible. About a dozen sound bytes are played that are revealing. The Mormons want to "save America" because it is the "promised land." God has a covenant with America. Not so. We urge you all to pray for Glenn Beck.

One point that was made on that radio broadcast was that standing with him at the rally or in any religious capacity INVITES GOD'S JUDGMENT AGAINST THE NATION. (Just as Bush's bringing together nonChristian religions in the National Cathedral to pray about 9/11 also did, as I've pointed out). The true God will not give His glory to another.